<table align="right"><td><toc></td></table> ++[http://deoxy.org/media?TranscribeMedia Transcript] of a six part video interview.++,, ~~[http://deoxy.org/media/action=edit&id=Derrick_Jensen/Interview add ยท amend]~~ ,, *also see **[http://deoxy.org/anti_aut.htm We Have To Dismantle All This] **[Meme:TheCorporation TheCorporation] ***[http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Corporation%20OR%20Mountaintop%20OR%20coal video] ---- #MAGIC Videx q="Derrick Jensen interview" ---- == * Part One == [http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Jensen&v=xUtCKNEqfL8 http://deoxy.org/vi/xUtCKNEqfL8.jpg|left20] ++'''Maximum Leverage'''++,, I mean I hate to be a contrarian but I don't think our primary culpability for the destruction of the natural world comes through what we consume, I think our primary culpability comes by not stopping the system that's destroying the planet, and there's a few directions that I can go with that. One of them is people sometimes talk about voting with your dollars and, hey that's an extraordinary statement about how bankrupt the so called democracy that we live in is when people recognize that the elections themselves are shams and so they talk about well you can vote with your dollars but that's just as much a sham for a bunch of reasons. One of them is that those of us who are not attempting to destroy things will always be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to money and I can show that in a couple ways, one is, first off, what is production within in this culture? Production is the turning of the living into the dead, it's the turning of living force into 2x4s it's the turning of rivers into hydroelectricity which is then used to convert living mountains into beer cans and that's what production is and that process Back to those of us who would wish to spend with our dollars being at a disadvantage. What happens if I buy, if i make lots of money, how do I accumulate a lot of money in a way that's not environmentally destructive because if I actually go out and build something, I'm within this culture, I'm harming the natural world. You know, If I write books, well where does the paper come from? Even if it's purely recycled post-consumer, it still involves a lot of electricity, a lot of water, and all those processes are within the industrial system. The whole system is incredibly destructive. So, I'm not saying that we shouldn't write books or do films or do whatever else we're doing, I'm just saying that, okay, so let's say I just go steal a bunch of money because that would be a way that's not environmentally destructive you know, I sneak into [Wiki:Wal-mart Wal-mart] you know, it's great, you know, it's always great to take money from Wal-mart. I sneak into Wal-mart in the middle of the night, oh god, I can't break a window because that might be considered violent by some people, but, I go in, I somehow nab some money from Wal-mart or I make a lot of money playing Poker online, because I guess that's not environmentally destructive, except you have to have a computer, okay so let's say I get a million dollars and I sent it aside, well, I just basically lost my whole pile and I've gotta go back to Wal-mart and take a bunch more money in order to get another million dollars to protect more land. But let's say instead someone accumulates a million dollars somehow and they buy a bunch of land because they wanna deforest it. And they now can cut down all the trees and they've made 5 million dollars and now they can buy 5 million dollars worth of land, and then they can do it again and again and again. The point is if you're attempting to use money in a good direction, it ends up being a hole. I'm not saying we shouldn't I'm just saying that we will always be at a disadvantage that way. That's one reason we can't vote with our dollars. Another reason is, I was doing the math a couple years ago, I actually fly a lot because I do a lot of talks and, so somebody could say "Well you know, you're responsible for, for United Airlines staying in business." Which is a question in any case, United Airlines staying in business is a question. And so I actually did the math and found out how much I spend, remember once again I fly quite a bit, and compare that with their total revenues, and my total input was, I don't remember what it was, it was like 1/9 billionth. So yeah, I'm responsible for 1/9 billionth of united Airlines staying in business and that's not a lot of leverage. When I think and I talk about stopping the destructiveness, I want to try to find ways that have the most leverage possible. I want to leverage my power. Because we who are opposing empire and we who are opposing the destruction of the natural world don't at this point have the luxury of just using naked force, the federal government has enough resources at its disposal that it can just have people go in with guns everywhere and use overwhelming force. I just read the other day that the United States military is outspending the insurgents in, or the resistance, in Iraq by I think it's 128,000 to 1. For every dollar that the insurgents resistance spent, that's, the United States government sends 128,000. Which is very very short lever from their perspective. One is, how can we find ways to leverage our power? Leverage our efforts, and I mean I think that, that certainly you know minimizing ones expenditures is a good thing to do on it's own but that's the biggest lever I can think of. And It's like Ward Churchill says we also have to remember that personal change doesn't equal social change. We could all become vegans and, or all of us who care could become vegans and this culture would still be destroying. ,, ,, == * Part Two == [http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Jensen&v=uB3uomGshQI http://deoxy.org/vi/uB3uomGshQI.jpg|left20] ++'''Pathology of the Personal'''++,, I got into a big argument with some guy a few years ago because he was saying that because I use toilet paper I'm just as responsible for deforestation as the CEO of [http://www.endgame.org/weyerprofile.html Weyerhaeuser]. And that seemed nonsensical to me But that's something that so many of us do all the time is we take responsibility for actions that are not our own and he was saying go ask a tree this. So I did. I ask a tree 'you know am I as culpable?' and the tree said, 'look You are an animal you consume things get over it.' And, and then I realized yes I am actually culpable for deforestation but not because I use toilet paper I'm culpable for deforestation because I consume the flesh of a tree but I don't fulfill my end of the bargain by stopping [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9badbpsrUc Weyerhaeuser]. So what I need to do is I need to stop [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxcWfurEebk Weyerhaeuser]. One of the things that abused children often do is because they're in an entirely uncontrollable situation they will attempt to control whatever they can and so if I can merely make it so the dishes are absolutely spotless I won't be beaten. So they may obsessively clean the dishes. If i can make sure that I am perfect then the dreadful wont happen. I perceive a lot of over emphasis on personal lifestyle stuff to be the same response because I mean I've heard so many people say, 'yanno, when I think about deforestation I have to look myself in the face because I'm just as guilty.' well, no actually you're not. [http://www.jailhurwitz.com/index.html Charles Hurwitz] is a lot more guilty, so is the CEO of [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3MVqGyaz5g Weyerhaeuser], so is the CEO of what used to be Georgia Pacific, so is CEO of Sierra pacific so is Larry Craig, senator from Idaho. Um, so are the forest service employees and so I think we need to not take responsibility for things that aren't our responsibility, and yeah I can cut back on my consumption but if I take that to its end then I should just go ahead and off myself right now and that's not how I can best serve. I can best serve by stopping [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvUFn48Avt8 Weyerhaeuser]. I think it's really important that we don't identify with the system, and that we don't identify with those running the system Would [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh Tecumseh] the Shawnee Indian, would he have said "we're deforesting" I don't think so because he was opposing the forces that were killing his people. And would members of the French or Russian or Danish or German - well German let's drop them off, would members of the French or Russian or Norwegian or Yugoslavian resistance have said in world war II 'gosh you know, we're, we're killing the Jews, we're the p-you know conquering Europe.' No, they knew who their enemies were. And I think - a lot of people say 'gosh derrick you're so decisive' but the truth is the division is already there and the planets being killed, and are you for it or are you against it? And so there's, I think it's really important to say "I am not the US government. I am not the CEO - I'm not the corporations, I'm not the CEOs of the corporations. Either one. So, I am opposed to them. And does this mean that you don't consume anything? Once again I try and enter into that relationship, um, I take responsibility for what I can. I didn't create car culture, I didn't create the oil economy. Its my job to shut both of them down. And sure I can drive as little as possible, but I can look for other levers too. ,, ,, == * Part Three == [http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Jensen&v=3BFJe3FDVMs http://deoxy.org/vi/3BFJe3FDVMs.jpg|left20] ++'''What's Your Threshold?'''++,, ...or here's a great thing too, that it's often said that the ability to recognize patterns is one of the signs of intelligence. So I'm going to list a pattern here and let's see if we can recognize it in less than 5 or 6 thousand years. When you think of the plains and hillsides of Iraq is the first thing that you think of Cedar forests so thick that sunlight never touches the ground? That's how they were. The first written myth of this culture is Gilgamesh going in and deforesting those hills to make cities. When you think of the Arabian peninsula is the first thing that you think of Oak forests? That's what it used to be. Let's move a little bit West and you get the Cedars of Lebanon, and they still have one on their flag. I never can remember if it was Plato or Aristotle, I think it might have been Plato who was commenting on how deforestation was destroying the springs and rivers in Greece. And I'm sure those in power said "Well, we need to study it a bit longer first, to make sure there's a connection." Greece was heavily forested, Italy was heavily forested, North Africa was heavily forested. You know this culture has been deforesting. Any way of life that's based on the use of non-renewable resources and based on the hyper-exploitation of renewable resources, so-called. Any way of life that perceives the world around them as consisting of resources and not beings and communities to enter into reciprocal relationships with is going to destroy its land base. This culture has been destroying its land base for the last 6,000 years. That's not very smart on a finite planet. And once again we can pick whatever measure you'd like, whether it's migratory songbirds, sturgeons, deforestation, i mean pick a measure. Things are.. We're really fucked. (cut) You know, give me a threshold, give me a threshold which you'll finally call this an apocalypse. Give me a threshold, more importantly, at which you'll finally fight back. What's it going to take? Will it take the death of salmon entirely? Maybe it'll take the death of Polar bears. Maybe it'll take the death of whatever your favorite migratory songbird. Or how 'bout, maybe it will take, I used to have this sort of hobby of asking people if they like their jobs and 90% say no. What does it mean when the vast majority of the people spend the vast majority of their waking hours doing things they don't want to do? How crazy is that? So, you know, you're working a 40 hour a week job, that you don't really like, so is that enough for you to start resisting? When it's your own life? Or how about this, how about, rates of cancer are just going through the roof. And so when I have talks, when i ask people, "How many of you have had someone you love get killed by cancer?" 70 to 80 percent say yes. So it's like okay, hmm. You're not going to fight back when your lover dies of cancer? When your mother, your father, your child? Your brother, your sister, your best friend? You're not going to fight back when you get cancer yourself, in your own body? I have Crohn's disease which is a disease of civilization. Give me a threshold. (cut) ...that one of the smartest things the Nazis did was they co-opted rationality and they co-opted hope by making it so that every step of the way it was in the Jew's rational best interest to not resist. So would you rather get an ID card or would you rather resist and possibly get killed? Want to move to a ghetto or resist and possibly get killed? Want to get on a cattle car or resist and possibly get killed? Every step of the way they're faced with that choice, it's a brilliant move on the Nazis part. You want to take a shower or you want to resist and possibly get killed? There's a very interesting thing about it which is that the Jews who participated in the Warsaw ghetto uprising had a much better rate of survival than those who went along, which is something we all need to keep in mind over the next 10 years. But my point is, the same thing's happening today, that's why I say give me a threshold. Because okay, do I want to really try to do something to help the salmon, or do I want to, and possibly get killed, or put in prison for the rest of my life, do I want to really oppose the system or is it okay for the salmon to go? Okay how about the lampreys, how 'bout the sturgeon, bow 'bout the polar bears? How 'bout your brother from cancer? That's why at some point we just have to say, enough is enough. (cut) I mean if I'm going to be in a concentration camp I would much rather be one of the privileged ones than not. If I'm going to be in this death camp system, sure, honestly, I would rather not be- there are more slaves in the world today than came across in the middle passage- and I would much rather be in the position I am then be a slave. I would much rather not be starving to death. I am incredibly privileged and it's my responsibility to use that privilege to bring down the whole system. Otherwise I'm not worth shit. ,, ,, == * Part Four == [http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Jensen&v=6G3eehgyz0E http://deoxy.org/vi/6G3eehgyz0E.jpg|left20] ++'''Modern-Day Slavery'''++,, Wiki:LoremIpsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Etiam imperdiet sodales ligula. Proin velit. Sed id nibh rhoncus tortor blandit porttitor. Nunc nulla. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Maecenas urna ipsum, placerat in, vehicula vitae, venenatis ac, dui. In sagittis turpis. Phasellus nunc. Sed blandit. Cras volutpat lorem sit amet sem. Aenean purus metus, consectetuer eget, nonummy egestas, aliquam ac, quam. Etiam aliquam egestas est. Maecenas vulputate. Donec sagittis. Pellentesque purus. Ut sed arcu at justo elementum euismod. Quisque pretium pharetra mi. Nulla feugiat. Vestibulum aliquet enim ac pede. Pellentesque habitant [[TranscribeMedia]] morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Fusce eu massa at felis ultrices placerat. Quisque eleifend ultricies felis. Donec non sapien. Proin euismod aliquet nibh. Ut mollis. Praesent rutrum commodo dui. Morbi lacinia, justo id pulvinar sollicitudin, sem ante ornare urna, in vulputate felis est non lectus. Sed quam. Nulla facilisi. Nam ligula lacus, mattis a, sagittis et, aliquet vel, ipsum. Suspendisse viverra nulla sit amet ante. Maecenas consectetuer, pede at gravida porta, tellus nunc vehicula elit, in semper augue mi quis sem. Nulla id lorem. Etiam consectetuer dui ut nunc. ,, ,, == * Part Five == [http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Jensen&v=pBIudbPDzVw http://deoxy.org/vi/pBIudbPDzVw.jpg|left20] ++'''Whatever It Takes'''++,, Wiki:LoremIpsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Etiam imperdiet sodales ligula. Proin velit. Sed id nibh rhoncus tortor blandit porttitor. Nunc nulla. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Maecenas urna ipsum, placerat in, vehicula vitae, venenatis ac, dui. In sagittis turpis. Phasellus nunc. Sed blandit. Cras volutpat lorem sit amet sem. Aenean purus metus, consectetuer eget, nonummy egestas, aliquam ac, quam. Etiam aliquam egestas est. Maecenas vulputate. Donec sagittis. Pellentesque purus. Ut sed arcu at justo elementum euismod. Quisque pretium pharetra mi. Nulla feugiat. Vestibulum aliquet enim ac pede. Pellentesque habitant [[TranscribeMedia]] morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Fusce eu massa at felis ultrices placerat. Quisque eleifend ultricies felis. Donec non sapien. Proin euismod aliquet nibh. Ut mollis. Praesent rutrum commodo dui. Morbi lacinia, justo id pulvinar sollicitudin, sem ante ornare urna, in vulputate felis est non lectus. Sed quam. Nulla facilisi. Nam ligula lacus, mattis a, sagittis et, aliquet vel, ipsum. Suspendisse viverra nulla sit amet ante. Maecenas consectetuer, pede at gravida porta, tellus nunc vehicula elit, in semper augue mi quis sem. Nulla id lorem. Etiam consectetuer dui ut nunc. ,, ,, == * Part Six == [http://deoxy.org/watch?q=Jensen&v=g3d3XTtm6LU http://deoxy.org/vi/g3d3XTtm6LU.jpg|left20] ++'''The 3rd Alternative'''++,, Wiki:LoremIpsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Etiam imperdiet sodales ligula. Proin velit. Sed id nibh rhoncus tortor blandit porttitor. Nunc nulla. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Maecenas urna ipsum, placerat in, vehicula vitae, venenatis ac, dui. In sagittis turpis. Phasellus nunc. Sed blandit. Cras volutpat lorem sit amet sem. Aenean purus metus, consectetuer eget, nonummy egestas, aliquam ac, quam. Etiam aliquam egestas est. Maecenas vulputate. Donec sagittis. Pellentesque purus. Ut sed arcu at justo elementum euismod. Quisque pretium pharetra mi. Nulla feugiat. Vestibulum aliquet enim ac pede. Pellentesque habitant [[TranscribeMedia]] morbi tristique senectus et netus et malesuada fames ac turpis egestas. In hac habitasse platea dictumst. Fusce eu massa at felis ultrices placerat. Quisque eleifend ultricies felis. Donec non sapien. Proin euismod aliquet nibh. Ut mollis. Praesent rutrum commodo dui. Morbi lacinia, justo id pulvinar sollicitudin, sem ante ornare urna, in vulputate felis est non lectus. Sed quam. Nulla facilisi. Nam ligula lacus, mattis a, sagittis et, aliquet vel, ipsum. Suspendisse viverra nulla sit amet ante. Maecenas consectetuer, pede at gravida porta, tellus nunc vehicula elit, in semper augue mi quis sem. Nulla id lorem. Etiam consectetuer dui ut nunc.